Gough’s BeerNuts Production Podcast Transcript

This transcription has been slightly altered to allow for people talking at the same time and other difficulties in transcribing the recording word for word.

Setting the scene for the video:
On the left of the screen, you can see the back of Gough’s head and shoulders. He is wearing headphones, and you can see a microphone on a stand in front of him. On the right of the screen, you can see Kim sitting in front of Gough facing him and the camera.

The audio begins:
Gough: Hello and welcome to the Beernuts Prodductions podcast! My name is Gough! My special guest today is a lady who has been working with the blind and vision impaired community for, crikey, a long long time.
Kim laughs.
Gough: She was my O&M instructor back when I was at school, and we’ll learn all about that of course, what little GOUGH was like, it will be very entertaining, I'm sure. It's Kim Pilic! How are you, Kim?
Kim: How are you Gough?? Good. How are you doing?
Gough: Very well indeed.
Kinm: That's the way.
Gough: Now you do have a company Forward Steps...
Kim: Mobility.
Gough: Mobility. I apologise.
Kim: That's okay.
Gough: Nearly had it! Nearly had it!
Kim laughs.
Gough: So, can you tell us about Forward Steps Mobility please?
Kim: Yes, so Forward Steps Mobility is an independent provider type service in the area of NDIS, the National Disability Insurance Scheme, and I'm specialising in the area of blindness and low vision services. So one-on-one around Orientation and Mobility, and I guess we will get into a little bit of what that's about afterwards.
Gough: Why not now?
Kim: Alrighty lets run with it. So, Orientation and Mobility is really about equipping people and empowering them so that they can travel independently with confidence and safety through the larger community, in any given environment. So that's a good part of what I'm doing as well as moving into group activities. The social and recreational side of things, and that’s pretty well it.
Gough: Why is it important for blind and vision impaired people to have independence?
Kim: Well, I guess for a person it's an important factor. So, if you think about moving from A to B in any environment, whether it's a workplace environment, like here in the studio, although there is a bit of clutter around here though Gough, I must say.
Gough laughs.
Kim: This could be very interesting around the narrow space’s technique and a modified cane approach for those travelling as long cane Travellers. I'm not quite sure how a dog guide would manage around here too. Looking for the best sort of gap to find and to navigate a person safely, or the handler as they would call them.
Gough: Oh, I will have a word to Scott. He's not equipped, “Scott, Scott, you’re not
equipped for the blind and vision impaired community, smarten yourself up”. Kim laughs.
Gough: Scott owns the studio for those who are wondering.
Kim laughs.
Kim: Oh, okay.
Kim: Independence is important for everybody - so there are specialised ways at times to equip people so that they can get a cross roads safely, know how to flag down a bus or when to get off at the required stop. I was actually out with a chap today using an app called Moovit, which is a free app to download, and that gives moment by moment information about the travel route that people are on, what sort of bus stops their passing, and when you reach your required destination. I find too Gough, that, like, the learning is reciprocal. So, when I’m imparting and teaching skills and equipping people, they're also teaching me a lot about things. In fact, Moovit was introduced to me by someone who is a white cane traveller and moving me into that space of technology more as well.
Gough: So how is it that you do what you do? Essentially, so let's take a basic example of teaching a blind person who is younger we’ll say, to maybe cross the street safely, so they don’t get skittled by a car, so how would you go about teaching a skill like that?
Kim: That’s a good question! Sometimes that can start off at a tactile level with mapping work, so actually starting to introduce the concept of what a road crossing is about, whether it's a T shape or a crossroad. So, starting with those basics or rudimentary, and then building upon that information. So, for example: listening and localisation skills, developing that. Earshot principles and making decisions when vehicles are out of earshot. Starting off in quiet residential environments, and then moving and transitioning into the semi business and into CBD type intersections and audio tactile. People may not realise that the audio component is actually designed to help people who are blind and have low vision. Often depending on the degree of blindness, for some people they can't even see the traffic light pole. So, it’s a form of being able to hone in and localise the position of the traffic light pole, but it actually gives a signal on when it’s the clear segment or interval to cross the particular road. People are also taught how to listen for the parallel traffic and perpendicular movements. So, we build on those concepts as well with children. The tactile component is for the people who might be deaf blind, or have a degree of hearing impairment. They can actually touch the little surface, the little pad adjacent or below the tactile button and actually receive like the vibration, to alert them that that's their safe interval to cross the road.
Gough: Now so a friend of mine, this happened a few months ago. I was crossing the street on the pedestrian crossing and I don’t look when I’m crossing the street, because you taught me as my O&M Instructor how to use my ears. So, my friends over the other end of the street, I wasn’t aware they were there and I just walked across the pedestrian crossing, and knowing that the car was a certain distance away so I was safe to cross. I could hear the car coming, but I knew I would be fine to cross because I could judge that distance and my mates just freaked out! They've watched this blind dude they know walk across the street without looking both ways at all, as you taught when I was a kid.
Kim laughing and says: "How did he do that?"
Gough: Yeah, that kind of thing, maybe you can tell us a bit more about the listening skills and how you teach the blind and vision impaired people about how to use their ears instead of their eyes.
Kim: I'll give you an example that I can draw upon from today actually, working with a lady who is a long cane traveller. She still has a little bit of low vision, but needs the cane for a bit of safety preview as she's a bit unsure about things at the footing level. She can still see where the white lines are on the road, but as an added safety precaution, she is encouraged to listen up for the acceleration or deceleration of breaks that might be indicating a red-light jumper, for example. So that's one point that we discussed today and covered the practicalities of it, and she did well there. Also combining the two. So sometimes one is an adjunct to the other. For example: It might be that she can hear what the vehicle sounds like even though her beeper, the audio lights signalling safe to cross, it might be her hearing, like with your situation you listening out. It might be that her hearing alerted to the fact that an engine still sounds like it's revving too quickly, and they'd be likely to go through that intersection. For her, encouraging her to actually use that little bit of residual vision to double check just in case there might be a cyclist or even some of the hybrid cars these days.
Gough: Yeah, they're so quiet, I don’t like them at all!
Kim: I know. But you know it reminds me of something when you were at school Gough. I can remember, I may have turned up to work with you when you're at a particular high school and I was informed by the teachers that you’d actually come a cropper with a vehicle, and I was really concerned because was it a leg injury that you experienced at the time?
Gough: So, I was on a pedestrian crossing. I was about 16 at the time, and I’m crossing a pedestrian crossing. A car had actually stopped for me. So, I started crossing the pedestrian crossing and another car comes and overtakes that car and takes me out. Then I was taken to hospital and I had to have an operation on my knee and I got two black eyes, my face was all grazed up cause obviously I got smashed buy a car going sixty kilometres an hour. So, you no, I'm lucky to be here really when you think about it, so yeah, please go on.
Kim: There are two points that came from that, that are a bit funny. It shouldn’t be funny, but it is, because it came from your mouth, so it has to be funny. I remember when I caught up with you and you communicated to me. You said, “Well Kim, I've learnt how to fly, but I haven't learned how to land”.
Both Gough and Kim are laughing.
Kim: It was a classic moment. I just didn’t expect it to come out. I just know your quick wit and your humour, but yeah, I think at the time it still surprised me, that through such a serious incident and accident, where you were injured and required surgery, that you still had a humorous reflective outlook on what happened.
Gough: Well, I haven’t gone back to see if I have learnt the landing part of it.
Both Gough and Kim laughing.
Kim: Don’t count me in to trial that one either. I pass on that one.
Gough: And the second part, you said you took some learning's from that?
Kim: Yeah, I did, absolutely. I still talk to people around that particular scenario. So, where it might be a single lane where it is controlled with a zebra crossing and I can actually see that there could be a sufficient gap for another vehicle to overtake the one giving way to pedestrians. I actually point that out routinely now, [to clients], and I bring up the example: “I remember working with a schoolboy once” …, and I do tell them the funny part too. “He told me he learnt how to fly but not how to land”. It is a really serious point because you had done the right thing. You picked a designated point to cross the road safely and you just wouldn't anticipate that a sneaky or sly motorist is going to come up in an area that is not actually a designated lane. They were just an impatient driver. So, drivers out there, be more patient and more alert and vigilant to the activities of pedestrians out there as well, because it is your responsibility to be abiding by the law.
Gough: She was charged with dangerous driving, lets be clear about that because it was dangerous driving.
Kim: Absolutely.
Gough: Now what are some things you see in the community that frustrate you when you think of Council, or government, or somebody that would just make that simple little change so that life for the blind and vision impaired would be so much easier? What are a few little things you could point out?
Kim: That’s a good point! Actually, I need a pair of gardening shears I think, amongst my equipment. Overhanging branches and foliage. Whether it's on council property or in private property. Where pedestrians need to move. As sighted people we take it for granted that we can see those encroachments in our space, but for people who can't see or have low vision, it stands to reason that it shouldn't be there. Council is often... I guess part of my role is to advocate for people and I have done a number of advocating roles recently on the Gold Coast here. I assisted someone in the area of the northern part of the Gold Coast where there were foliage encroachments in the footpath space. Council was really quick to act upon that. Another area that can be a bit frustrating is when vehicles actually are blocking the footpath too. Just yesterday I encountered that with somebody who was undertaking a travel route that has no light perception, so she can't see anything to draw upon any sort of residual vision for shapes or shadows or visual reflections from sunlight. Sure enough, we walked the forward route to the new objective, or location, and on the way back, a car had only parked halfway up the driveway, and was completely blocking our access there. So just being mindful of the fact that it is a pedestrian space, so be respectful and courteous to pedestrians in general. Also take into account that there are people out there travelling with white canes and dog's that won't see those things, and it becomes problematic and it can actually compromise their safety.
Gough: Are there any other little bits and pieces that you can think of that really, really, get on your nerves, that you think that council or somebody would just make that really simple change?
Kim: I've been involved in like even intersection upgrades, which is a pretty major thing. the inclusion of some tactile ground surface indicators at safety points. They’re like these tactile tiles. If you speak to some of the “Brisbanites”, they call them the braille trail up there.
Gough: Yeah, I’ve always known them as the braille maps.
Kim: There’s basically two different types. One is like a warning or a “watch out” for something tile, or even like an alignment at the top of a pram ramp for people. Or at the bottom and top of escalators. Having those types of inclusions at ramps for example, where engineers design them [ramps] to point out towards an intersection, because of all the other factors they need to consider with water flow, and things like that. If people were to align their feet with the direction of the gradient at times, it would actually point them away from their connecting ramp on the other side of the road. So, tiles can actually play a part in aligning feet correctly at that point. So, even at Griffith University, I have encountered that at the top of steps there, with really steep drop-off edges and no warning. So, I'm actually going to be approaching the university when things sort-of resume back to on campus basis.
Gough: Look out Griffith!
Both Gough and Kim are laughing.
Kim: That’s right!
Gough: Kim’s coming for ya!
Both Gough and Kim laugh.
Kim: Because look, long cane travellers and dog guide travellers, and the dogs are trained to stop at the top of the steps, and to put their paws up when they’re ascending steps, to alert the person - but even a proficient long cane traveller if they're having a day that they may be a little off, we can all have those. To have those tactile alerts underfoot can make a huge difference to somebody’s safety, in stopping them in their tracks; whether it’s the cane tip that detects that, or whether underfoot, or a combination of both. So, it is an important point and it’s simple, relatively inexpensive, but it can make a world of difference for those that are needing to access places that can be improved in terms of safety.
Gough: Well, it’s amazing how simple a lot of these fixes are yeah?
Kim: Yeah, that's it - yeah!
Gough: And what are some of the common myths that people might have about blind and vision impaired folk, that are just simply not the case? You know people have false impressions.
Kim: You already name one Gough! And that was where you had already made the decision to cross the road, and you left your mates there saying, “How did he just do that, he’s blind”! And that's it! People will have misperceptions or make judgements, so there’s fallacies out there. But one of the big ones is that for people who travel as long cane travellers, and for those that don't know what a long cane is, it’s basically that really long white cane, that usually has a ball on the end of it more often than not rotating, in nature. And, people at times assume that because someone is walking with a long cane, that they are totally blind, or experience no light perception, or perhaps a bit of light perception. But that's not always the case. There are a lot of people walking out there, say with Macular Degeneration, Glaucoma, Retinitis Pigmentosa and various other conditions, even Diabetic Retinopathy, for example, who may have a little bit of residual vision, but require that cane, to give them more confidence, to correct their posture, to preview the environment ahead of them. To keep them safe and to communicate to others around them, whether it’s motorist or the public in general, to make room, you know, clear the way, a bit like Moses, you know, the parting the water. It’s like a rod and a staff there in a sense. So that’s one of the misperceptions. I think the other one that I've encountered over the years too is people make assumptions that because someone is standing there, and they’re blind and they have a cane or a dog present, that the person is not able to answer for themself. So, for example if you think of a scenario where people have gone up to a shop counter, and they've requested something in particular, but then the shopkeeper will redirect the question back to me, and say what would the person like? Then you know, I will say well ask the person, or I will just redirect it to them. Or at times, people will just pipe up and speak for themselves. So, you know, people just need to know that because someone is blind, it doesn't impact their intelligence or their own ability to communicate, articulate and self-advocate for what it is that they want.
Gough: The brain works fine, it’s the eyes that are the problem. What are some of the things that a sighted person will take for granted and a blind or vision impaired person might…, do you understand what I’m trying to say?
Kim: I think even if you think of the broad scenario of getting from A to B, and all that happens in between. So, for people who are legally blind, they are not able to drive obviously, so for sighted people they just jumping into their car and off they go where they like, is one classic example. There is a whole myriad of them, I don’t know how many of them you’d like me to mention, but that’s a classic there. The whole A to B, is let's get in the car and go to point B.
Gough: It's not as easy as that.
Kim: No, it's not! [For people who are blind or have low vision], you might have road crossings to negotiate, you might have to incorporate public transport, crowded congested environments, sandwich boards that are placed right in the pathway of people, overhangs, branches, and there’s people actually walking across the path of someone with a dog. In fact, the other day I was in the mall with somebody, in Brisbane, the lady was walking with her dog guide on the braille trail, but I think it's a lack of knowledge and education for the public. A lady just hurled into her lady and her dog in that situation. So, if you think, if you're a corporate person in the city and you're trying to get to point B your office. You caught the public transport in or driven into work, then you know you can visually navigate your way through those crowds, but it's really up to people to recognise what the white cane means, or the dog guide, and to understand that those tactile tiles have a purpose and a plan and are really helpful to help people navigate straight lines. So, their dogs might not veer off or get disorientated. Or the person themselves might become quite disorientated in very spatial settings.
Gough: Going back to your original point of the car, so, it's a timing thing as well. So, for example if it’s myself, they might say can you come in here in half an hour, well it’s not that easy. Because I've got to think about how am I going to get there? Do I get a taxi? Do I get a bus? Do I get a train? How long is that going to take me? Do I have to wait for a certain thing? Do I have to go to a cab rank? You know there's a lot of things for me, I just can't jump into a car and drive there. It’s little things like that do frustrate me about others, it’s just a little bit of consideration for other things.
Kim: A lot of planning can go into it, in getting to that point B, and as you said it’s not always fluid. It could be two buses; it could be a train. What takes someone else a half an hour to drive a car to that point could take someone else an hour and a half to reach that same destination.
Gough: Absolutely! Now before we wrap things up, my production man Simon, I tell him constantly. He is the world's worst sighted guide! How that man hasn't had me killed, I do not know! Somebody like Simon, can you give him some general advice? If you're working with somebody who is blind or vision impaired, what would be some good tips for those people??
Kim: Alright Simon, here’s your tips, alright! Number one, Gough’s dignity is foremost and his safety, but basically, it’s just a matter of a person’s preference too. Usually, the person being guided would take the guides arm, just above their elbow, a bit like in a C shaped cup. I remember one young man, he said it’s like holding a stubby, so if you liken it to that. Gough would have his arm attached to the person guiding or Simon in this case, just above your elbow, and generally your shoulders would be in alignment with each other. If you have narrow spaces, it's just a matter of Simon or who ever is guiding, bending his arm behind his back or verbally communicating there is a narrow space, so that you know to follow in a single file and you would stretch your arm out in a straighter position so that way you're not going to step on the back of his heals, and you will get through there slowing the pace down as well. Sighted guide, sometimes people call it sighted guide and sometimes people call it human guide. Some people get caught up on terminology there. It means the same thing. It's the same technique. It can be used in assisting people in getting in and out of vehicles, sitting down at a table or say at a medical practice for example. It can assist people getting up and down steps or gutters and kerbs, gradient changes, all those sorts of things are an effective means of applying that technique.
Gough: What about in a workplace environment?
Kim: Like in this studio here?
Both Gough and Kim laugh.
Kim: That could be an interesting transition.
Gough: A general workplace kind of office environment.
Kim: A lot of people in their known environments manage pretty well. It might be more in the unfamiliar environments that lending a helping hand or a helping arm in this situation with sighted guide, is this situation for people. It's just a matter of generally people would ask if they require the assistance and there is a lot of trust involved if you're moving into an area that you don't know because relying on the other person sight to navigate that environment, and to ensure that you're going to get through without bumping your arm or your shoulder against a wall, or a jutting out desk, or a filing cabinet or something of that nature. So even giving a description for some people about the environment their going into, or the design or the size of the room can be helpful. Communication is often key, but a bit of physical guidance through sighted guide goes a long way. For children it’s modified a little bit, depending on their height, it might be that they hang on to the guides wrist, or their fingers, or their thumb. For some blokes they prefer as a cobber sort of thing to pop their hand onto the guides shoulder, as a preference rather than taking somebody’s arm. So, it’s really just depending on the individual. Some people might like to hang onto their long cane while they’re walking in sighted guide as well. It’s all about personal preference.
Gough: One other quick thing, people are often amazed when I go to let’s say my gym for example. I’m able to just get around no worries at all. I tell them, I make a mud map in my mind, so I could essentially get out a piece of paper and draw you a diagram of the gym and where each piece of equipment is. That is really important for me to have good memory and good awareness of where things are, and if they then change things, it really annoys me because now, I don’t know where anything is. I have to relearn all that stuff. Could you talk just a little bit about that?
Kim: It's keeping things in the same place basically, and you’re right, memory comes into it. A lot of memory work. People don’t realise how you're mapping things out cognitively, and the position, and the relative position. So, it’s like well there’s the treadmill, now where’s the relative position or distance or direction to the dumbbells, for example. So, all of those things you’re mapping out from point to point, around that particular room or the gym environment, to know where you’re going, and where to locate things. It is possible where people are operating with some functional vision, even though they have a degree of blindness, they can still move about as quite visual navigators in the world. It might be more a matter of trying to read the weight of the dumbbell, depending on the size of the contrast of that information printed on it, or written on it. There are all sorts of variations that can happen, but that’s a really good example that you’ve brought to the floor there Gough, good on you. It's good to know that you’re working out and keeping fit and healthy there.
Gough: Well, thank you very much!
Kim laughs,
Gough: I do my best. So, Kim before we wrap it up, where can people find you? If people want to know more about you and about your business, where can they go?
Kim: So, my business name as you’ve mentioned is Forward Steps Mobility. Am I able to give out my contact number out?
Gough: Website address, social media, absolutely!
Kim: I do have an active Facebook page at Forward Steps Mobility, and I have a website as well, forwardstepsmobility.com.au, and my contact details can be found there, or people can send me a message via Messenger. Whatever they’d like to do!
Gough: So, make sure you check out Kim’s website and Facebook if you got a chance, and if you have any questions, she will be happy to ignore you.
Kim laughs.
Gough: That’s a joke, obviously!
Kim: No that would be my husband saying, “Oh she’s on the phone again, she’s ignoring me now”!
Gough: Thank you so much for coming in today, Kim. I really genuinely appreciate it. I hope everybody out there got a little bit of helpful information, and that has concluded the BeerNuts production podcast for today! Of course, beernutsproductions.com is where you need to go for all your entertainment needs, and of course like and subscribe to the podcast. Make sure you follow, leave a nice review on what ever app you may be listening to this podcast on, and yes that brings us to the end so thank you very much for listening. Thank you, Kim, and we will chat to you next time.
Kim: Thank you Gough.
End of audio recording.

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